Well, Then. *Puts on her Magical Merlin Meta Hat (tm)*

[solarcat]

I probably shouldn't write about this, because it can only bring teh wank to the door, but I have to. I read thingswithwings's post--specifically, this post right here this morning, and it has bothered me all day, which is something that rarely happens. I love my meta, but usually I can move beyond it, take the opinions offered with a grain of salt, and not let it bother me for very long. Twelve hours after my initial reading of the post in question, I still feel the need to write about it, so that's what you're getting here.

Reading the original post is probably a good idea (note: the author has essentially turned off commenting, so don't bother trying), but I will be quoting sections of it here. I will make every effort to leave those quotes in as much context as I can, and will try not to mis-characterize (what I see as) the author's intent. I am not a mind-reader, and I will likely manage to mangle something here, so I would like to apologize in advance. If thingswithwings should ever make her way here (look! I'm assuming gender already! XD ) and feels that I have mis-characterized her or her points, she is more than welcome to point that out to me in a comment, and I will of course be willing to clarify whatever I can of my own opinions and thoughts. I honestly do not want the wank storm, and I don't mean this post to be an attack on thingswithwings, who was (much as I am) just expressing her opinions. I just feel the overwhelming need to talk about this.

I will also note that I am neither an Arthurian scholar, nor any sort of academic at all. I have a BA in English and Religion and work as a lowly Editorial Assistant. I'm just your average fan (actually, considering the makeup of fandom, I'm probably a below average fan), so I don't claim to have any super-special knowledge or authority or anything. This is just my thoughts and opinions, and yeah, sometimes they might be wrong, or unpopular, or just plain weird. But I'd be glad to engage in a cordial discussion with anyone about any of my points, at any time. Talking is how we learn from each other, after all. =)

Also, possible spoilers for the entire first season of Merlin beneath the cut. Enter at your own risk. Plus, LONG POST IS LONG. (Sorry! I talk too much. ^^;;; )



I will preface by saying, thingswithwings did warn that if Merlin is your happy place, you probably should not read her post. But I am a meta whore, and telling me not to read something about one of my major fandoms is the equivalent of leaving the cookies to cool on the counter and telling a full Girl Scout Troop of eight-year-olds not to touch them until after dinner, then going for a walk and leaving them in the house with the unguarded cookies. *has no self-control* XD

So I read it. And yes, it bothered me quite a bit. But not, I think, for the reasons thingswithwings thought it would.

From my reading of the post, there is an underlying tone of you won't like what I'm saying because I'm going to show you all the problems with your fandom, which you have not noticed, and you will immediately feel bad about being fannish about your fandom, because of these problems. I have some major issues with the assumption that those of us who are fannish about problematic texts (for purposes of this meta, assume "text" to refer to the canon of a particular show/book/movie/etc) are only fannish about those texts because we haven't noticed the problems. I will return to this later, but it seems like a rather fundamental underlying assumption of thingswithwings's post, and I thought it was appropriate to begin the discussion there.

Yes, Merlin is a problematic text. I believe it is a very rare and precious text that isn't problematic in some way. These texts are created by people, and people, no matter how well-intentioned and aware of Issues, are flawed. We all have underlying assumptions and beliefs that we may be more or less aware of, and those color the things we create. But that's another discussion, and it will rapidly take us off topic, so let's jump back to Merlin. Here is what thingswithwings had to say (emphasis mine):

[I]t IS bad tv, and the particular way in which it is bad tv is not just historical inaccuracies and badly written dialogue and cheesy animated Clash of the Titans-reject monsters. It is bad tv in that it is misogynist tv, in that it is completely unthoughtful tv, in that I can pretty much guarantee you, after seeing thirteen episodes, that it is going to be painful to watch and it is going to CONTINUE to be painful to watch, especially on grounds of gender and race. It is never. going. to get. better. at those things. The show makers DO NOT CARE about those things. If you want some examples of this badness, let me rattle off a few in the misogyny category: women's magic is evil; women with power are evil temptress sorceresses who want to kill you; women who have actually pretty legitimate grudges are apparently insane and must be stopped (I kind of don't get why Nimueh isn't supposed to be sympathetic); if a good woman has magic, it's the uncontrolled, unconscious, dangerous kind that comes on her in her sleep and that doesn't actually help (because no one believes her); women exist in order for men to compete for them; need I go on. It's all the classics, guys. Marion Zimmer Bradley is probably spinning in her grave, god help her. Wasn't she supposed to have fixed all this stuff about women's cauldrony magic being evil? I AM JUST SO FUCKING SICK OF ALL THIS CASUALLY WRITTEN BAD TV THAT REINFORCES ALL THIS BULLSHIT. And, by the way, I have a whole nother rant about how aesthetically poor texts are often the same as misogynist/racist/heterosexist texts - about how those things often go together. I'll tell you about that someday.


This is her reading of the text, and therefore is entirely valid. Her opinion is hers, and I have no standing to contest it. But I do have issues with it, upon which I will now elaborate. At length. (Feel free to fall asleep, send covert text messages under the table, or do sudoku puzzles while pretending to take notes. I won't mind. ;) )

1. Women's Magic is Evil
This is a painful misunderstanding of the text, to me. I can't speak for anyone else, but I worry that perhaps many of us are so used to this being the case that Merlin isn't getting its fair shake. Let's look at the text for a minute:

Episode 1: Evil Sorceress (FEMALE) (1)
Episode 2: Evil Sorcerer (MALE) (1)
Episode 3: Evil Sorceress (Nimueh) (2)
Episode 4: Evil Sorceress (Nimueh) (3)
Episode 5: --
Episode 6: Evil Sorcerer (MALE) (2)
Episode 7: Evil Sorcerer & Evil Sorceress, working together (MALE & FEMALE) (3, 4)
Episode 8: --
Episode 9: Evil Sorceress (Nimueh) (5)
Episode 10: Evil Generic Bad Guy (MALE) (4)
Episode 11: --
Episode 12: Evil Generic Bad Guy, plus Morgana but not really (MALE) (5)
Episode 13: Evil Sorceress (Nimueh) (6) Believe me, we will be getting back to this one. Just roll with it for now.

And then let's look at the tally:

Evil Sorcerers (male): 3
Evil Men in General: 5

Evil Sorceresses (female): 6
Evil Sorceresses if you count Nimueh as one: 3
Evil Women in General, counting Morgana (with Nimueh as one): 4

I didn't count Uther here, because he's kind of always cast as a "bad guy" (with more or less justification for his actions at any given time, true), so he throws off the tally. This is a wholly unscientific measure, but...

How does this say that the text shows women's magic as any more evil than men's magic?

YES, you have Nimueh, who appears in four episodes as a major figure of "evil" (again, we will speak of this later), but it bears noting that she is also a major figure of "evil" in various versions of the legends on which the show is based. They did not pull this villain out of their hats. Uther could be viewed as a comparable "villain", but not really. YES, Uther is a source of tension and drama, but Merlin could wipe the floor with him if he wanted to. That he doesn't makes him the hero. That he could makes Uther unsuitable for a flashy, direct-conflict bad guy. Uther can't hurl fireballs at Merlin's chest, and if they're going to draw from the legends? Pretty much the only options they have are female. Nimueh is a logical choice, here, and given that, I feel that they've made a pretty good effort to also include evil, male, sorcerers in addition to the Evil Magic Womenz.


2. Women With Power Are Evil Temptress Sorceresses Who Want To Kill You
Really? I don't think we've been watching the same show. Referencing the above list again, let's take a look:

Episode 1: Evil Sorceress -- A grieving mother who wants to make Uther pay for executing her (magic-user) son by killing Uther's own son in return. Disguises herself as an, admittedly, fairly pretty woman (let's not revive the "Gwen is ugly!" Torchwood thing, please?) and acts vaguely flirty with Uther while attempting to execute her plan, but mostly so that she can slip in hints about how much she's going to kill Arthur and how Very Very Naughty Uther is. Doesn't count, in my book.

Episode 3: Nimueh. Attempts to kill everybody in Camelot as part of her revenge on Uther. Never actually interacts with any of the other characters.

Episode 4: Nimueh. Infiltrates the castle, is generally pretty and kinda distracting to Merlin, plays the "scared, vulnerable woman" card to get Merlin to do what she wants. Later plays same card to get Arthur to do what she wants. (Nimueh is sort of non-creative here.) **Evil Temptress Sorceress**

Episode 7: Evil Sorceress works with her father the Evil Sorcerer to put a spell on Arthur so that he falls in love with her, in order that they can lead him to the lake and sacrifice him to the faeries. **Evil Temptress Sorceress**

Episode 9: Nimueh. Sends Zombie Tristan to kill Uther (and/or Arthur; she doesn't seem particularly picky). Has angry discussion with Uther, in which it is revealed that Nimueh has actual Motives and is not just randomly evil.

Episode 12: Morgana, but not really. Morgana gets fed up, and decides to kill Uther. Yes, she's technically a magic user, but she doesn't have control over it (yes, this is another issue we will discuss). Doesn't count as an Evil Sorceress yet. (Is insanely UST-y with Uther, but that's not the focus of this essay. We're moving on.)

Episode 13: Nimueh, sort of. It's debatable precisely how much of the bad stuff "Nimueh does" here was actually Nimueh and how much was the general "old religion"/nature/Law of Equivalent Exchange (I'm looking at you, Fullmetal Alchemist! >.> ). If we assume that Nimueh had to direct the "trade" of lives in the episode, then she counts. If she was just the mouthpiece for something bigger/higher/more powerful, even if it is sort of esoteric and magical? Then she doesn't really count. Don't blame the priestess for what the god does, blah blah. (I told you we'd talk about this.)


To recap, in my reading of the show, we have TWO instances of "Evil Temptress Sorceress" in 13 episodes. (And seriously, I argue that Edwin totally counts as Evil Tempter Sorcerer, which is a whole 'nother issue.) Morgana, who is arguably one of the most "in power" Women With Power in the show, is not yet an Evil Temptress Sorceress (and we'll come back to that). That Nimueh only plays the "woe, I am a poor, helpless, ridiculously attractive woman; you must save me!" card once is fairly impressive to me, since it would be very easy to fall into the trap of letting that become her M.O., though it would only work on Merlin and Arthur the first time.


3. Women Who Have Actually Pretty Legitimate Grudges Are Apparently Insane and Must Be Stopped (I kind of don't get why Nimueh isn't supposed to be sympathetic)

Here we address the Problem of Nimueh. She is our main villain (after Uther, who I've already addressed), and thus is the antagonist. If we're on the protagonist's side, we are naturally going to be opposed to the antagonist. That's just how it works. But the idea that Nimueh is supposed to be unsympathetic? Where did that come from?

At first, we have Nimueh The Generic Villain. She appears, causes trouble, tries to kill someone, is defeated but not vanquished, and will return at some undetermined point in the future to wash and repeat. But as of Episode 9? That view of Nimueh is totally outdated and not consistent with the text. Nimueh is given a backstory and motives consistent with her previously-shown obsession with killing Uther and/or destroying everything he cares about. Uther is killing her people. He has killed many of her friends. Just as the grieving mother in Episode 1 is a sympathetic character, so is Nimueh as of this point in the show. We understand why she's doing what she's doing, and though we still want Merlin to "win", the cost and implications of that victory become less and less clear-cut and more and more morally ambiguous. We are given the implication that if Arthur becomes king too early (and, one might read into the text, for the wrong reasons, as in, if Uther is killed by magic) he may turn into yet another Uther rather than the Once and Future King that he's supposed to be. But we are also explicitly shown that Uther is a ruthless ruler with a huge swath of irrationality running through him where magic is concerned. He is, essentially, carrying out a genocide of magic-users. But (and this is the question Merlin struggles with in Episode 12), is it morally okay to kill him for it?

By the end of the season, Nimueh is far from a one-dimensional, "apparently insane" character, and we know it. Merlin and Arthur, however, do not. In fact, Uther pretty much gave explicit orders that Arthur should never know the circumstances of his birth, which are at the root of both Uther's obsession and Nimueh's. To Merlin? Nimueh is an insane, evil sorceress who must be stopped before she kills the people he cares about. (To be fair, it would have helped if she'd, y'know, just explained stuff instead of going on about how a life has to be traded for a life or hurling fireballs at Merlin or whatever.) But while Merlin's worldview is still fairly black-and-white (though it's definitely bleeding to gray after Ep. 12, where he actually has to wrangle with tricky morality), the audience has a more nuanced view of the situation. Reading Nimueh's storyline as saying "women who have actually pretty legitimate grudges are apparently insane and must be stopped" ignores that the audience and the protagonist have different knowledge, that Nimueh's death is far from an easy moral situation from the audience standpoint, and that the text indicated that those events will have far-reaching consequences.


4. If a Good Woman Has Magic, It's the Uncontrolled, Unconscious, Dangerous Kind That Comes On Her in Her Sleep and That Doesn't Actually Help (Because No One Believes Her)

And here we get to the Problem of Morgana. At the end of the season, she's going bugfuck crazy, and with good reason. Not because she's evil, not because she wants to. This is one of the places where the text of Merlin gets extremely interesting for me, because Morgana's storyline is all about that whole "women with power" thing, but in this case, it's "women with power will be undermined by men with power". (Or, more accurately, "people with power will be undermined by people with power", since Uther is doing it to Arthur, too, but that's another issue.)

Morgana has magic abilities; this we know from the text. In fact, she is a powerful seer, something that Gaius knows and doesn't tell her. This is the contrast between Merlin's situation and Morgana's, and part of why (I believe) Morgana will eventually become a "bad guy" and why Merlin won't. Merlin is the privileged one here. He is not only aware of his power, he's being trained to control it and use it. Morgana, on the other hand, isn't trusted with her own power. This isn't a problem with the text, this is a problem with the characters (particularly Gaius, whose ethics, imho, require another meta post all their own).

"For her own good", despite her incredible self-possession, bravery, and prowess with the same weapons that Arthur uses, Morgana is left unaware and unable to control her own magical abilities. Not even "left", but forcibly prevented by means of Gaius' "sleeping draughts", which she is told are to help her with her "nightmares". Having no means with which to train herself, or even fully understand her situation, it is no wonder to me that Morgana is slowly (or, toward the end of the season, not-so-slowly) descending into madness. Eventually, we the audience know, she will become another antagonist, another Evil Sorceress to be fought and vanquished.

The text here is not supporting the removal of agency from women with power. Rather, it's supporting the idea that taking away Morgana's power is a Bad, Bad Thing. By disenfranchising this woman, who could have been a powerful ally, out of a misguided desire to protect her (as if Morgana would be stupid enough to tell Uther that she has visions? Please. Gaius should know better than that), the men in the show who are complicit in this (Gaius, and to some extent Merlin) are creating their own worst enemy.

What's happening to Morgana can be read as feminist. The text is showing that discounting her and trying to take her power away are bad.


5. Women Exist for Men to Compete for Them

They do? Well, there's Morgana in Episode 2, who attempts to use her status as a "reward" to the victor of the tournament to tease and rile Arthur. But if you watch the episode, Arthur is far more motivated by his need to prove himself to his father and to the kingdom than he is by the "reward" of having Morgana on his arm at dinner. The "date" with Morgana is a device used to show something about Arthur and Morgana's relationship, and to add some humor to the end of the episode (wherein they argue about who saved who). Beyond this, which male characters are fighting over which female characters? I can't think of any other instances where this is even applicable, though I'd be glad to hear if anyone else has thoughts on this point. It's simply mystifying to me.


*Takes deep breath* Are you all sick of my blabbering yet? Well, I hope not, but I'll try to keep the next part a bit shorter. XD

I will skip ahead a bit in thingswithwings's post, because many others in the comments on that post have already discussed the problems that exist in the other texts she holds up as superior to Merlin for various reasons. Instead, I will reply to her characterization of... well, me. Or rather, us. All of us who are watching and loving and ficcing and vidding and talking about Merlin.

Here's the quote (again, emphasis mine):

[List of various other fandoms] None of these shows are perfect by a long shot, but at least they're all shows where you can say that the audience isn't being treated like a five year old child with an attention deficit disorder; at least they're shows where the authors care about the characters and the worlds the characters live in; at least they're shows written with respect for the audience. Merlin, like SGA, like Smallville, treats me like I'm stupid. Why should I have to put up with that?

5) Fandom migratory patterns are strange things. People don't go where the good shows are, or the bad shows are, or even where the hoyay is; people go where their friends are. People go where their favourite writers are. I'm no different: I go where my friends are, and where my favourite writers are - how the heck do you think I ended up writing lotrips? And, I mean, I started watching SGA because everyone on my flist was talking about people called John and Rodney. And look, that is fine, that is all good, I love the fannish hive mind and I love the way that the show matters less than the people. But in this case, maybe we could let the show matter just a little? Maybe we could not start building in Merlin-land too fast? Maybe we could just wait for another place for fandom to go, a place that maybe won't be quite so toxic? Maybe even a place that's for grownups, a place worthy of the incredibly intelligent people who are fans?

This... Okay, I'm trying very hard not to be insulted, but I am, and I think this is why I stewed and steamed over this all day today.

I am not a moron.

We are not morons.

Yes, there are times in Merlin when the text is playing slow-pitch, or even tee-ball, but you have to remember that it's being played on the BBC as a family show. Trying to demand the sort of depth and complexity one would expect from a show like (as mentioned) Buffy or BSG or the X-Files from a show that's being aimed at the 8-12 set, as well as the 35-40 set and all the sets in between (and some, I'm sure, beyond), is unfair to the show. But that's not what thingswithwings is implying. The only implication I can read into this is that we are all too thick to understand that we are being fed misogynistic, racist, and otherwise morally objectionable drivel.

We are being told, here, that our show is treating us like we're stupid, and if we sit around enjoying it anyway, well, then, we clearly are as stupid as they're treating us. And that, that, I cannot let pass without comment.

I don't want to try to sound pompous or self-congratulatory or anything, but look at what I just wrote. For the fan who's willing to dig into it, to look beyond the surface sheen and really explore the text (which, imho, is the heart of fannishness), Merlin can be a rich and interesting sandbox to play in. There's plenty of moral ambiguity to be dealt with, and the character's psyches are a near-endless playground (and since much of the show revolves around and relies on the characters rather than intricate plotting or stellar writing (c'mon, let's be honest), the characters are a logical place for any fan to start). But beyond the general depth of the show, my point is that there are all sorts of readings of a given text, and the fact that mine is not as outraged as yours? Does not make it a less intelligent reading. It just makes it a different reading, made from a different viewpoint, tackling the text in a different way. That I am not outraged does not mean I am a moron, nor does it mean I am not paying attention.

I am paying attention; I just got distracted by the shiny of the Gay. XD

And therein lies my second point about these comments.

Shiny show is shiny. Capslock-y, glittery, crazy fandom is capslock-y, glittery and crazy, and more fun than a barrel with a naked Merlin and Arthur in it. And you know? It doesn't need to be more than that. I am an admitted meta whore, and as you can probably tell by this point, I can talk about my fandoms forever. But sometimes (and for some people, all the time) you just want to sit down with the shiny and have a good time, without worrying about anti-feminist undertones, disenfranchisement, racism, and the whole host of other Issues we so often post meta about. Does that mean it doesn't exist? No. Obviously not. Does that mean that by enjoying your shiny, you're somehow guilty of tacitly approving of these things, or of being too stupid to see them? Likewise, NO.

TBH, I worry about anyone who can't "turn off" the "meta switch". How can you enjoy anything, if all you ever see is sexism, racism, anti-semitism, etc? It's a problem, I'd agree, if you are completely unable to see those things in the media around us. But if you always see it? If you can never ignore it? How can you stand to turn on the TV at all? If I spent my whole life in meta mode, I would break down in despair, and eventually end up the saddest little fangirl at the mental institution, screaming about the ethical responsibilities of TPTB to my imaginary roommate Billy.

In Conclusion?

Sometimes, I want to talk about the Issues with my text. Sometimes, I just want to have my capslock-y squee. Neither of these things is superior to the other. They both fulfill needs for me, though those needs are different. That Merlin fulfills both of these needs for me, as I need it to? That is why this show is magic. That is why so many of us are suddenly in love with it; not that we're all morons who don't know any better.




Ahh. I feel better now. ^_^

Public post is public, feel free to direct others to it and link to it at will. I'd actually like to hear what people have to say about my readings of the text, since I haven't laid them out like this before and I'd love to know what other people are thinking about these issues. =3 (But do try to keep it civil in the comments, yeah? I don't mind metafandom, but I have no desire to end up on Fandom Wank. ^^;; )

Comments

[themollyedge.livejournal.com]

OMG, DARLING, I LOVE YOU MORE THAN WORDS CAN SAY.

Perfection -- utter perfection. You've nailed the issue completely. ♥

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

*is loved!* \0/

(Actually, you have no idea how glad I am that my babble actually made sense. XD )

[marn-barn.livejournal.com]

Having read the original post, I agree with you 100%. The author did have some ideas I agree with, but overall, the reason I most enjoy Merlin and the fandom is because it's fun. It's fun to watch, it's fun to talk about, it makes me laugh, it makes me cry, and I find it interesting. If I'm stupid because I enjoy a family show on BBC1, then so be it. :D

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

*nod* I definitely agree that it would be wonderful if TPTB put more effort into fixing these issues in the texts, and that it's sad that we have to pick up that slack for ourselves. But there was just so much that bothered me in the post, I couldn't let it go. I'm glad I've got at least a few people agreeing with me, though. ^^;;; *doesn't like being out on the limb alone*

I love my happy-making show so much. <333 *huggles all of Merlin fandom*

[rainchild.livejournal.com]

Ha, I'm glad you made this post because after clicking over to your link I was DYING to talk about it.

I am COMPLETELY WITH YOU on the meta-switch thing. The misogyny-ness of Merlin (and you made really good arguments against that anyways) really doesn't bother me. Maybe in our history there were misogynist tendencies that influenced storytellers/writers to make evil magicians female, but Merlin is a show based on old legends, and I DON'T REALLY CARE. Maybe that makes me a bad woman, but I get a lot more upset about, say, not giving women the right to vote, domestic abuse, etc. etc. than about there being statistically more evil female sorcerers than male. Frankly, I'd rather have the historical accuracy.

The idea that Marion Zimmer Bradley is turning over in her grave is sort of laughable, considering Morgana is more similar to Bradley's Morgaine than any other version of her I've seen. And there's the fact that Merlin has about the only female characters I've ever LIKED in a show/book/etc. (Hermione? Sam Carter? I think those are the only exceptions.)

(Sidenote: Being, like, the only non-SGA (or rather, non-SGA, non-Doctor Who) fan in the Merlin fandom is sort of weird. I have every respect for Stargate, seeing as I'm a die-hard SG1 fan who just never branched out to SGA, but still... WTF? How did the SGA thing even happen?)

Also, I'm sorry, maybe I have low standards, but I fail to see how Merlin is bad (CGI excepted). The characters have depth (I mean, how many other shows successfully flesh out and give voice to 6 main characters, complete with backstory, in 13 episodes?) and the relationships between characters are pretty consistent. I guess the plots can be repetitive, but I'm in Merlin for the characters, not the plot.

I will probably think of more to say later... *lots of hugs to you for giving me a place to rant*

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

YOU FELT MY PAIN! XDDD

The female characters aren't the first thing I list when talking about why I love the show so much, but I definitely agree that it's wonderful to have likeable female characters in my fandom. I mean, I'm writing my fic, and I'm actually thinking to myself, "How do I get more Morgana in this bitch??", which NEVER happens. Usually I'm trying to avoid writing the female characters in the fandom, just because I don't really like them and I don't identify with them at all. (Which is probably a lot of why I'm a slash fan... XD )

(SGA. Oh, SGA. I can't even explain. There are piles of meta about sexism/racism in SGA, and it actually sort of gives me a headache to think about it. SGA I watch for the John & Rodney Show and the shiny spaceships and the Epic Space Battles and try to ignore most of the rest of it. =_=;; I love SGA, I do, but digging into the meta is a long, slow spiral into suddenly hating 90% of the show you used to love. :\ Which is part of the experience that led me to my "you are allowed to sit back and enjoy the shiny, damnit!" conclusion here, btw. )

The characters in Merlin are just awesome to me. I love them, I want to get to know them, I want to know more about them. ALL of them. That NEVER HAPPENS. <333

*hugs* My journal is always a safe place to rant! I am rant-friendly, so long as we don't all go name-calling and pulling each others' pigtails. XD

[psychotic-scam.livejournal.com]

O.O *watches this all fly right over her head*

Hoshit. Well, it's good you got it off your shoulders! That's always good. Wank = bad. Who started the meaning of it? *is now wondering who started the first wank, ANYWHERE*

<333

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Haha, not a big meta person, I take it? XD (You're probably happier that way. XDDDD )

Hm. I don't know. Fanlore might have something...


HAHAHAHAHA, Fanlore has something alright. It's not what you might call precisely "factual", but it's funny! XD
http://zoepaleologa.livejournal.com/220037.html?format=light

[meepalicious.livejournal.com]

I went over and read the original post and then I read this.

First, I've got to say, congratulations on holding that in for twelve hours. That's ... impressive. (As you might've noticed, I impulse post a lot.)

Second, some miscellaneous stuff: I think, to a certain extent, stupid stuff like Merlin (and you know I mean that in the best way possible) draws really intelligent people because it's stupid; as long as it's open-ended enough and has enough gray areas and unexplained stuff to make a nice big sandbox. It's easy to consume and then you can turn around and meta/fic/metafic your heart out and be as fangirly or as academic as you damn well please about it. Stuff like this leaves a lot more wiggle room than "intelligent" texts, somehow. Ambiguity makes everything more fun.
(Also, maybe it's just me, but I feel a little bad ficcing something like Lord of the Rings (which is pretty racist itself, while we're on that topic), which was his magnum opus and his life's work and something that was excellently crafted and lovingly planned.)

Uhm, it's 1 a.m. and I'm probably making very little sense right now, but there you are.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

No, not at all! I totally get what you mean, and I think I agree. If you have a closed canon where all the plot holes and loose ends are neatly resolved in logical, intelligent ways by the original creator, you have no room for fandom. Fandom tends to come from the urge to smooth out the rough places and explain the things that never got explained in the source text. From there, we can jump off to AUs and continuations and so on, but a fandom usually starts because someone wants to fill in a gap, and then other people jump on and start filling in other gaps, and then suddenly you have seventeen million fic communities and the Slash Dragon with his own LJ. XDDD

(It was hard to hold it in, but being at work helped. I got to bitch and moan about the Catholic Press Awards submissions guidelines being incomprehensible and the myriad ways my predecessor managed to mess up the submissions log, which helped to distract me a bit. XD )

[hearts-murmur.livejournal.com]

Hm, well, the only thing I really have to say is that I did not interpret her "calling us morons" the same way that you did. o_@ I think what she was saying is that Merlin does not deserve the intelligent fans it has, and that she wishes we would wait for a show that is, as she put it, "worthy of the incredibly intelligent people who are fans".

But then, I don't really get offended too easily when people insult stuff I like. XD; I agree with her that Merlin is not good TV, but I don't need something to be "good" for me to enjoy it (har, obviously- seeing as I enjoyed Twilight (first book ONLY ladskfjdsf)). In the end, Merlin is fun and that's what matters :O (Admittedly it did take me a while to get over calling Arthur a "prat", the silly graphics, and Morgana's amazingly inaccurate costumes XDD) It's true that there are some things I wish had a bigger fandom, but seeing as I am not into fandom AT ALL, it's hardly worth complaining about. 8D

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

The way I look at it is, the author acknowledges that fans are intelligent. But by saying that the fandom isn't worth our time, when clearly we have decided that it is, she's undermining her own sentiment. It feels very, "You all are supposed to be intelligent," and a more than a bit condescending to me. I don't like the idea that someone can judge which fandoms are and are not "worth" intelligent participation by fans. :\

It's definitely easier to let it roll off you and enjoy the shiny. ^^ (And what are you talking about? Morgana's costumes are totally realistic! *whistles innocently* XD )

THIS

[ocelotspots.livejournal.com]

Well. I have to say that when I clicked on your post I was a little nervous. I have never paid *any* attention to meta before I joined Merlin fandom. This may be a problem of my head being deep in the sand, but I never really noticed it in anime fandom (side note: I can't believe I wasn't the only person screaming about Fullmetal Alchemist during that episode. I was like, wait, are we talking about the laws of Equivalent Exchange!!). But I read thingswithwings' post and it really hurt my feelings. I tried to read the whole thing, but ended up skimming parts because I just could not believe what I was reading.

I love the points you made, everything from Morgana's character to the sparkly importance of the gay. To me the most important thing is that we are all having fun. I've never understood the urge to trash a fandom just because you didn't like whatever it was. So it doesn't float your boat, that does NOT mean that you need to turn other people off of it. Or be nasty. Really. I think even in a sort of anon setting like LJ, you should still respect other people. Seriously.

There are plenty of things that get on my last nerve when it comes to Merlin. AND IT IS STILL AWESOME. Instead of hating Merlin for the way that Arthur and the CGI monster are never in the same frame together, and then somehow the sword is thrown/magicked to kill said monster, I just love the show a little bit more. I think they are all clearly doing the best with the resources that are available to them. If she's really that desperate for less Merlin fans she just has to wait until the het starts up (please god not) next season. People will drop out of Merlin fandom like flies.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that your response was well done, and beautiful and when we go get coffee I want to buy you a cookie or something (speaking of, are you free this weekend?) Have a ton of my love as well!

Re: THIS

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you were willing to brave the shark-infested waters of meta for me! XD

(Nimueh ends up in Germany when she goes all 'splodey, y/y? XDDDD )

There are plenty of things that get on my last nerve when it comes to Merlin. AND IT IS STILL AWESOME. Instead of hating Merlin for the way that Arthur and the CGI monster are never in the same frame together, and then somehow the sword is thrown/magicked to kill said monster, I just love the show a little bit more.

YES. I love the campy and the bad CGI and the Laser Guided Swords and EVERYTHING, no matter how silly and anachronistic and improbable it all is. Somehow it's just charming when it's all put together in this Merlin-shaped package. =3

(They better not drop out when the PTB amps up the het. I refuse to fight for the slash all by myself, damnit! *digs trenches and prepares for the long haul*)

This weekend... On Saturday I'm going to the DOMA protest downtown with a friend of mine, but I'm totally free on Sunday? =D?

[smokey2307.livejournal.com]

See? This is why I try not to think too depply about my shows. I mean, I love it when people write things like this that make me thing "Oh yeah, that's actually a good point" but I have no such thoughts of my own.

I'm just in it for the gay, really. And the lulz. Because let's be honest - we know it's historically inaccurate, we know that the CGI is ridiculously bad, we know that the script can sometimes be clunky. But it's just fun to watch, and we adore it.

Not that I don't agree with everything you said - I totally do - but I tend not to engage my brain that much. And I applaud anyone who does.

♥

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

XD Oh, don't get the wrong impression. I love being all thinky about stuff, but with Merlin? Yeah, most of the time I'm very much, Whee! Pretty boys! Swords! Dragon! Yay! \0/ (which is probably why I'm not an academic. XDDD )

♥!

[meritjubet.livejournal.com]

but I have no desire to end up on Fandom Wank We share a guiding principle, huzzah!

I can understand the critiques about misogyny and racism even if I do consider them a bit far fetched. There can be problems yes, but is Merlin really that much worse than a whole host of other shiny shows? (Supernatural, Torchwood etc) No show is going to be perfect and Merlin does at least try to battle the race/gender issues by making them less important than they would have been in the time period.

Sometimes a show doesn't interest you and that can be hard when half your flist is interested in that show. But I don't like when she/he says that as intelligent people we shouldn't be interested in the show because it isn't intelligent enough for us. Nor that a lot of people got into the show because they were merely following the fandom - how is that bad? I got in because fantasy! Pretty! Lolz! around episode two. And promptly tried to lure my flist into watching it XD Small fandoms take more work and many people are in fandom because it is fun. There isn't anything wrong with that.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

WORD. =)

This is a very good point, and one that I didn't make much of because I didn't want to get into the whole, "My fandom is better than your fandom at ____!" thing (which would be awkward, considering I also fangirl SPN and TW... XD ). But the misogyny in Supernatural, for instance, is (to me) much more apparent than any misogyny in Merlin (this may be, again, due to my own personal reading of the text, but I don't think so). Have you seen the vid "Women's Work" by sisabet and sockkpuppett? Yeah. That, I think, is misogyny you have to worry about much more than "the villain in this show happens to be female". (Which raises the point--if you cast a female character as "evil", is that always supposed to be read as antifeminist? The role of adversary is a powerful one.)

I like that Merlin has taken a lot of issues (like, as you said, race, etc.) and sort of supplanted them with this "racism" against magic users. Like every other show that does this, it opens up the discrimination to be read as being about anything, which allows it to be handled more generally as an issue (and also to be read as coded homosexuality, of course <3 ).

*got dragged in by the Epic Gay of episode 4* Exactly! I was brought into it by a squeeing, pimping post full of pictures of pretty boys and dragon. That was all i needed to get me in. But to get me to stay, the show had to hook me in some way, and it DID. I fell in love with the characters, pure and simple. But I don't go around making posts like this one to try to lure people to my fandom. Y'know? Great pimping post there--"Try my fandom! 26% Less Misogyny by Volume! Moderately Okay on Race Issues!" *eyeroll* So, yeah, we don't sound all academic-y most of the time, but really, I'd love to see the fandom that does.

[airinshaw.livejournal.com]

See, I'm never fannish about the shows/filsm I love best. Because I love them that much and they give me what I need so I don't NEED fandom. I don't need fic.

I'm fully aware that my SGA-love grew out of wanting to see some amazing characters taken out of the hands of the writers (who fail. A lot) and be given some actual exploration. The hot man-love was just a helpful tool :P

For me, Merlin is the same. Its lack of perfection is why I'm here. If it were perfect, I would feel no need to stray from the canon.

Also your reading on Morgana is exactly where I'd gone with it. I've been really enjoying the fact that they have given us this strong, confident and hot woman who, from ep 1, is the only one willing to stand up to Uther. And then they're showing us that through the male characters treating her as they do, it does damage.

In fact, it's BETTER than that - they have taken what could have been just another "woman-magic-user-is-evil" antagonist from the "original" Arthurian legends, and made her sympathetic. They've done what has been done to Nimeuh, in essence. So yes, we have the typical "evil sorcereress" character, but then we have Morgana and what's happening to her to sort of show how it could have happened to Nimeuh.

So really, it's more saying "Men make women crazy by taking away their power. Stupid men" than "Women R Evil OMG."

Regarding the comments on the Merlin viewership, I didn't read it as thinking that we're morons, but there was, for me, a hint of "the viewers are sheep" that I don't agree with. People may TRY something because their friends are in it, but they stay for the fandom itself. If I didn't love and want to be in a fandom, my whole flist being in it couldn't make me stay. If that were the case, I'd have been in Due South years ago. Or SPN. And I'm fairly certain that all those people writing fic and falling in love with the show are not doing it just because their friends are.

But then maybe I'm sensitive to the issue after years of being called a "McSheeper", you know? It totally ignores that I love the pairing for my OWN reasons, not just because my friends/the majority do. And if they differ from your needs/wants/likes, then that doesn't mean that you're progressive and out there - it just means that on this occasion, our opinions differ and mine happens to fall in the majority. Trust me, didn't happen that ofter in Bandom!

In conclusion (hah), you know I'm the first one to point out how lame Merlin as a show can be. But that doesn't mean that I don't love it. In fact, as people/you above have said, its very flaws make it more interesting to talk about. And while maybe it doesn't get it's feminism and racial issues bang on, it seems to me that they are at least visibly trying to diversify from the white, male dominated genre.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* Yes. Definitely agreed. I don't think fandom could exist for a perfect canon, tbh. There's nothing for us to do with perfection.

Also your reading on Morgana is exactly where I'd gone with it.
So really, it's more saying "Men make women crazy by taking away their power. Stupid men" than "Women R Evil OMG."
I'm glad to hear this, because it means I am not (entirely) crazy. XD But seriously, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's reading the text this way. I love that they're showing that her "decline" on the moral scale is not her fault, and that they've managed to show that she's not only independent and strong, but also really cares about people (Mordred, the villagers she (with Gwen's help) sneaks food to in 1x11, the people Uther is persecuting). It makes her (v. likely) future status as a "bad guy" all the more interesting in terms of the moral ambiguity of attempting to "vanquish" her (as, of course, they must).

there was, for me, a hint of "the viewers are sheep" that I don't agree with. People may TRY something because their friends are in it, but they stay for the fandom itself.
YES. A thousand times, YES.

But then maybe I'm sensitive to the issue after years of being called a "McSheeper", you know? It totally ignores that I love the pairing for my OWN reasons, not just because my friends/the majority do. And if they differ from your needs/wants/likes, then that doesn't mean that you're progressive and out there - it just means that on this occasion, our opinions differ and mine happens to fall in the majority.
That's the sort of thing that bothers me. I have this very immediate angry response to fans telling other fans what they should or should not be fannish about, or telling other fans why they are fannish about something based on stereotypes and generalities. Isn't that exactly what we all speak out against all the time? It just makes me mad. Because, of course, you're right. Our opinions often differ. If they didn't, it would be scary and hive-mind-ish and actually no fun at all. But of two differing opinions, you can't say one is innately superior to the other just because it's more or less popular. :\

And while maybe it doesn't get it's feminism and racial issues bang on, it seems to me that they are at least visibly trying to diversify from the white, male dominated genre.
The Merlin writers and producers do seem to be making some effort, which makes me happy. They're charting new ground in terms of the Arthurian legends, but they have to make it recognizable to a mainstream audience, so there's only so much they can do to subvert or avoid a lot of the issues that existed in the source texts that they're playing with. Given that, I think they're doing fairly well, really.

[erjika.livejournal.com]

I need to wake up in four hours O_O but here's a quick response. I've read all of the comments on the OP's page, and some I agreed with, some I didn't, but one thing no one has brought up is this: is fangirling a male slash pairing not inherently misogynistic?

In the past, excuses for liking (male) slash included not liking female characters because they were poorly written. For material that included poorly written females, shouldn't the feminist to do be writing them as strong women? And yet that didn't happen much. Most (not all, but most) writers would either write the female character as she was in the source material, problems and all, or they would make her strong but put her in the background, or possibly not include her in the first place.

I'm going to draw on SGA since it did have start with a poorly written female character in Teyla, though the writer's slowly began improving her. Fandom has adored her for a long time, but she's not well represented in fic on her own. The John/Rodney show has eaten everyone's brain, which is great, but Teyla's appearance in fic is usually in the background. There have been some efforts to get her and Ronon into the spotlight, but they're fairly obvious one-off attempts. It's certainly possible to write her as a truly strong main character without her being the prime focus of the fic (see cesperanza's 'Written By the Victors'), but this is a rarity, even in a field of excellent, self-aware writers. There isn't a big momentum to write her as a main character of any sort, and yet that would be the most 'proper' feminist thing to do.

I find it hypocritical to complain about misogyny in a fandom when oneself is continually marginalizing women in their own slash fics. If one turns into a (male) slash writer with some femslash thrown in every now and then? Awesome! And Merlin's arguably got more femslash in it from the get-go than most (male) slash-driven fandoms. While I can't say I've read or been aware of SGA fic, I would say that there's been more of a focus on Gwen and Morgana than there has been on Teyla. (there could, of course, be a whole other set of issues there, revolving around Teyla's enigmatic/alien/PoC status, but I do think people in Merlin fandom are more open to writing female characters as main characters than many people in SGA have been)

If we continually squee about boy love, no matter if we occasionally throw a bone and say 'this female character rocked this episode,' we aren't doing much to encourage media to create better representations of women. We are no better than ancient Greeks who were cool with the HoYay but treated their women as second class citizens. I haven't been active in many fandoms, but what I've definitely noticed with Merlin is that few are saying 'I hate this female character,' and the few who were only said so because they felt Nimueh didn't have enough depth. There's been many posts that were all about the women of Merlin. Though many would preface episodes like To Kill The King with 'Not much Merlin/Arthur,' it would then proceed to 'MY MORGANA GIRLCRUSH, LET ME SHOW YOU IT.'

Yes, there are problems with portrayals of females and minorities, though I don't feel it's nearly as bad as thingswithwings feels. My main problem is that it's very difficult for someone to argue for better conditions when the person arguing is actively perpetuating the issues they're railing against.

Let me know if you need clarification on anything I've written, because I need to stop editing this and get some sleep. So much for a quick response. :(

[rainchild.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, maybe fangirling slash pairings is actually misandristic (shuttup, it's a word now :P). I mean, we are sort of treating the boys like sex objects.

Actually, I think it just comes down to the fact that we want to read/write about the characters we find sexually attractive, and for most of us, that's the guys. Although this doesn't explain the multitude of evil!girl character intruding on slash couple's true love that I've seen in other fandoms (Digimon comes to mind, I don't know how common this is elsewhere).

Umm... I had more to say but then I fell asleep. Or I will, in about five minutes. G'night!

[ionaonie.livejournal.com]

So, I kind of love you for this *g*

I originally posted a kind of disagreement with thingswithwings, but never quite got round to making it sound, well, intelligent. Thank you so much for doing that *bows down*

I really did have a problem with the 'women magic users are evil' thing, because, well, I don't think any of them were evil - or, at least, not generically so. From the very beginning you, as a viewer, knew that the mother had motivation to kill Uther.

And what the writers did with Nimueh, I would argue is what the writers of Buffy did with Spike (or their monsters in general) - start off as a generic baddie and then make them more complicated - make the lines more blurred.

The text here is not supporting the removal of agency from women with power. Rather, it's supporting the idea that taking away Morgana's power is a Bad, Bad Thing. By disenfranchising this woman, who could have been a powerful ally, out of a misguided desire to protect her (as if Morgana would be stupid enough to tell Uther that she has visions? Please. Gaius should know better than that), the men in the show who are complicit in this (Gaius, and to some extent Merlin) are creating their own worst enemy.
After this paragraph, I think I'll love you for ever. Because everything about this is a big, damn YES!!!



I think one of the problems with a lot of what thingswithwings argues is that she is assuming that the writers of Merlin are as haphazard and slapdash with characteriscation and continuity as the Stargate Atlantis writers. She's already assumed that the writers of Merlin don't care and aren't aware of what is in their own text. She's kind of ignoring the subtleties that the writers are putting in there. I think they are purposely making characters ambigous, I think they have set up possibilities in S2 where what Merlin did to Nimueh has big as possibilities and wasn't such a great idea.

As you also point out, she's kind of ignoring the already existing canon - which (as long as you take the view that Arthur etc are legends and not actual history - or that olden day historians were anti-feminist, because that I'll believe) if you're going to blame anyone for women being either evil or only there to serve men, I think it should be them. I think the writers are doing a fairly good job of turning the existing canon on its head.

Having said all this though, I feel very proud of our fandom at the moment - we're only 4 months old and we've already had our first wankfest *g*

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

(Dropping a note here to say, I am NOT ignoring you. I will reply to this hopefully not with as many words as I inflicted on erjika ^^;; later, but for now I have to finish beta'ing stuff so hils doesn't leap the Atlantic and attack me with a spork. XD )

[heizqu.livejournal.com]

I can't really form a long and coherent response to this, so this is all I'm going to say: WORD. \o/

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

\0/

Because you mentioned hats in the title... :D

[hollyxu.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, I agree with you 100%, and on the other I do see where the OP is coming from. (My insane Twilight rage springs to mind.) This will probably go in the way of a huge wankfest, though.

I think Merlin is just a huge blind spot of hatred for her, the way Twilight is for me, though the way she phrased her arguments are condescending, and applause to you for a most excellent job on responding!

*goes back to play in the shiny, sparkly sandbox*

Because you used hat!Merlin... =D

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Well, I hope we can avoid a huge wankfest if we're all willing to sit down and talk about why the things that make us angry make us angry. We may not end up agreeing, but at least we probably won't hate each other in the end. ^^;; *wears the stupid grin of the eternal optimist*

I suppose I can understand that everyone has something that makes them irrationally angry (by irrationally, I don't mean that she doesn't have reasons, just that the level of anger seems out of proportion to the situation, imho). But, okay, to use your example--Twilight. I hate it too. I think it's idiotic and presents the sort of example I don't think is healthy for tween girls to be emulating. But, for example, my 7th grader cousin? LOVES it. Practically all she asked for for Christmas was Twilight-related stuff (in order to avoid buying it, I bought her an iPod. This is my level of financial commitment to not supporting Twilight). But in the two days I spent at my cousins' house, hanging out with them and even listening to the Twilight soundtrack she got in the car? I didn't feel the need to come right out and accuse her of being an idiot for liking it. I didn't rant about all the things about it that enrage me. Because everyone likes what they like, and though I totally plan to gently introduce some (imho) much better urban-fantasy style YA literature into her life when she gets a little older, I'm not going to tell her that her choices are invalid just because I don't agree with them. She finds something in the text that hooks her, that she can relate to in some way, that she loves about it. And it's just not cool to harsh on somebody else's squee just because you don't squee about the same thing.

*joins you in the shiny, sparkly (but not in a vampire way) sandbox*

[lisson17.livejournal.com]

oh thank fuck you posted this, cos that post has actually driven me more than a little crazy. I am actually quite offended by what 'she' has written.

You deserve many many hugs of actual love and congratulations, because you've expressed what i suspect quite a few of us feel in a much better way that i think i ever could, because i would have actually gotten quite caught up on the fact 'she' was calling me an idiot when she has no idea who the fuck we are

*ahem*

sorry, i tried to not get worked up about it, but it's just not in my nature to read this and not take some kind of offence.

You Are God

that is all :-)

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Oh, I had to fight down the huge urge to start name-calling and generally being really really angry, believe me, because my first response was also to be quite offended. =_= Then I proceeded to sit down and think about why I was offended, which, as we can see from the results, is clearly never a good idea. XDDD

But I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees things this way, or at least partially sees things this way. ^^

(The nuns might disagree with that one, but... Okay! *dons halo, Divine Glow(tm) and obligatory white robe* 0:D )

[runningondreams.livejournal.com]

So, I got here through a rather convoluted trail of meta-and-fic and just thought I'd... add some thoughts.

First: I haven't yet finished watching the first season of Merlin, but I found it extremely interesting to see these two views put side-by-side, as it were. I myself have something of an obsession with meta, so it's always fun to see how different people interpret the many, many issues that can be pulled out of a given piece of text. So.. thanks, I suppose ^^.

Second: I find these sort of discussions especially interesting in fandoms where I can't quite figure out what I like about the show in the first place, which is something of a combination of the two views presented here. I look at shows like Merlin and SGA and, at one point, Heroes and even though I love their shiny, sparkly existence, there's always a part of me that will look at the writing/acting/non-cohesive-storyline/lack-of-character-development/disagreeable-messages (depending on the day and the show), and think "Why do I keep coming back to this?" And I've realized over the past few months that this is exactly the sort of show/text that I will actually become involved in as a member of fandom, not just a casual observer.
If I were satisfied with TPTB and their actions, I wouldn't have any need to dig through the character's heads or stretch their worlds to the limit. I would write no fic, make no graphics, and avoid all meta. It's pretty much the definition of fandom, for me-- taking what the text has given us and filling in the things that we want/need to happen off screen. For me, being a part of fandom is engaging intelligently with the material and coming to terms with everything it presents and how it does/should/would affect the characters that made me fall in love in the first place. The text is fun, but fandom makes it better (in a talking-about-it-makes-it-real kind of way). Obviously, this is not true for everyone, but considering some of the truly fantastic fic and meta I've seen over the past few years as a member of various fandoms, I'm hardly the first.

... slightly off-topic there :P, sorry for the random intrusion.

This has just prompted another topic to me: that most of these shows are dominated by male characters and slash pairings, and while most of the canon writers are male, most of the fan-writers are female, and how those things inter-relate, which is a whole different meta-session I may write up someday, though I'm sure it's been discussed before.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Hey, no worries about the random intrusion! I leave these sorts of posts public so that people can comment on them, after all! ^^

It's pretty much the definition of fandom, for me-- taking what the text has given us and filling in the things that we want/need to happen off screen. For me, being a part of fandom is engaging intelligently with the material and coming to terms with everything it presents and how it does/should/would affect the characters that made me fall in love in the first place. The text is fun, but fandom makes it better (in a talking-about-it-makes-it-real kind of way).

Long quote, but I agree with this 100%. I mean, to take a good example--Smallville. The show? is crap. Let's just face it. Some of the early seasons had some good moments, but it rapidly declined into the bad sort of crack. And yet, I LOVE it, and that is PURELY because of the fandom. The fandom makes it palatable. TBH, I haven't even SEEN many of the later seasons, because the fandom did it better. I don't have to put up with TPTB's crap version, because I've got the fandom to fill in the blanks, tease out the story that should have been told on the screen, give the characters a cohesive character, etc. That's kind of taking it to an extreme level, but that's what I love about fandom and being fannish. I get so much more out of my shows now than I ever got out of things before I found my way to fandom. Before, I would just give up on a show when it went insane (I recall Alias being a good example of this happening to me); now, I go hunting for the fix-it fic. =3

Haha, now I'm the one who's probably off topic. XD

Definitely write it! It doesn't matter that others have written on the topic before; they haven't written your interpretation of the subject. The beauty of meta, for me, is that everyone adds something to the conversation. Even if all you manage to do is spark an idea in someone else, it all adds up and contributes to the sum total of knowledge available to the fandom community. ^^

[givemethebook.livejournal.com]

Hi, I stumbled upon this post while having a look at the people in my roundmerlin team.

I guess there's nothing I could add, that has not been said in the comments before. Yours is a well researched answer, that adresses all the points of the original post and you even manage to stay civil. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but I can't stand people screaming their opinion in my ear and then calling me stupid.

I'm not into Merlin for the historic accuracy (and believe me, nothing thrills me more than a fanfic that actually manages to be historically accurate), and I don't mind when the scripts are simple and predictable (more space for fanfic to explore). It's the characters I love and care about, and it's their interaction and personal growth I want to see.

So, lets just enjoy our fandom together and write some fic.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

It's the characters I love and care about, and it's their interaction and personal growth I want to see.

Most definitely! ^^ If I don't care about the characters, I don't stick with a fandom long enough for it even to become a fandom, really. It's ALL about the characters. =)

Yes! Let us write fic! For great justice! \0/

[madame-parker.livejournal.com]

That post made me so cranky when she pretty much called anyone who watched the show stupid. We all have our own reasons for watching Merlin, for me it's a great way to just escape, that's the true magic of the show, it's fun, it's shiny and when it hits with moments like Morgana and Uther hugging, it really makes for a lovely surprise. And maybe it's because I don't go looking for friends through fandom, yeah, fandom is fun but I burn through them in an eye blink sometimes. So for me fandom is not the be all and end all of being able to enjoy watching a show/film.

Well done for writing this post and for also pointing out some great meta about the female characters on Merlin, most of all Morgana, who I've adored since I first read up on her years and years ago, that's another reason to love the show, writing Morgana in such a great way.

[incapricious.livejournal.com]

You read the "text" in a similar way to me, so thanks for writing all of this out, because I never would have been able to stay focused enough to be so coherent! I loved the show even before Nimueh got an actual backstory, and so consequently was thrilled when she turned out to not be one-dimensional. Same with Uther's hatred for magic.

I don't know... I just tend to classify something as "good" if I like it. Possibly that's a little simplistic, but oh well?

(I am new to the fandom so sort of stumbling around... I think I got here via your post in merlin_us about the east coast meet-up.)

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Hey, stumbling around is how we all start out! =D Does this mean you are an East Coaster, then?

*nod* Likewise, I loved the show already but was thrilled that they filled in backstory in a way that makes sense and gives the characters real motivation for their otherwise-incomprehensible obsessions.

Nah. I mean, yes, it's simplistic, but there's nothing wrong with that. This post could just as easily have said "STFU, I love the show, back off my squee, damnit!", but I really felt that I needed to address the specific things that I thought thingswithwings was just wrong about with regard to the show and its messages.

[ces-1.livejournal.com]

ok, first of all I have to say, I always tend to end up on the opposit side where I'm supposed to be; stumbling upon this post while I was researching a topic for my proposal essay and I ended up here (no clue on how, where and when).

Hello! :)

I always watch shows cause they entertain me, they have plots, characters, theme and etc I like that draws me into it. And I've liked my share of "bad" TV (Pacific Blue anyone? can't help it, something drew me in to the show!) If I don't like it, I don't watch it. (never got into Smallville for instance) if my show have some issues I don't like, I just ignore it and focus on the good stuff. (ST Enterprise) And I rarely dwell if the show has some kind of continuing errors, historical inaccuracy or bad CGI or whatever. As long as it entertains me, I'm game. I'm not watching a show to criticise it, it's for my pure enjoyment only.
So when I stumble upon posts like thingswithwings wrote, I cant help feel "so, I'm stupid now? I'm supposed to stop watching and feel like a 5-year-old because I happen to like it?"
(I always grit my teeth when I find a post like "this actor sucks" in a actor's forum for example... why even bother to waste time to create a login name and just to comment that? I feel it's sort of the same with her/his post.. if you managed to watch all 13 episodes you must've liked it at some point? I wouldn't go through 13 episodes of a show I didn't like and being annoyed with every episode, and then complain about how inaccurate it is to teh public. It doesn't make any sense to me.)

So I just want to say thank you, for not letting me feel stupid or guilty for wanting to watch Merlin (or any other shows) with your post. :)

and FMA! omg, I was watching the episode and it didn't occur to me after I read your comment, it was so fma with equivalent exchange! haha.

Oh, and I haven't commented on the fandom, but there haven't been that many fandoms I've been "active" in, I think it's Merlin, and stargate (both SG1 and SGA) and I did one tiny little video for fma... that's it. Fandom can be a great boost for a tvshow, but unless I'm not finding something in the show, the fandom doesn't exist for me. It's a bit weird though, how I get worked up on some shows; fanfics, videos, following the actor/actress acting career whereas on some shows I watch and follow like a slave (supernatural, CSI:LV) the fandom has no place for me, It doesn't even dawn on me that there is a *big* fandom going on.

I don't even know what the point was in that last bit... I think my point is in there somwhere but overlayed with a lot of nonsense rambling..

sleep deprived... a student's life, mhm.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm glad my post could help. ^^

I think that's one of the great things about fandom, really. It can be different things to different people, and we all have our own levels of involvement with our various fandoms. Like me, I LOVE Doctor Who, but I'm not really "in" the fandom the way I am with, say, Merlin. I'm satisfied with the canon for Doctor Who, but Merlin has me salivating for more. For other people, it might be the opposite, or they may be totally uninterested in both of them. But, y'know, it works. ^^

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I totally love you right now. *twitch* I have very vivid memories of that post.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Hee. Thanks! =3

(And thanks for the rec! <3 )

[aelora.livejournal.com]

Just yes. I can't really think of much more to say to this post than that, which could possibly mean I'm a moron. :) I read thingswithwings post even before I had watched Merlin and it insulted me beyond reason, and now that I have watched Merlin, and am completely consumed by the shiny, glittery, magical pleasure that is my new fandom, well, my insult turns to rage. You have lessened that by letting me know I am not alone. Thank you.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Glad to be of service! *bows* XD

I still can't quite pin down exactly WHY the show is so glittery and happy (beyond the staggering amounts of Teh Ghey, anyway), but at this point, I'm totally content to just love it to pieces. <333

[kassrachel.livejournal.com]

Here via seperis' rec. I've never seen Merlin (am so far resisting the pull -- I don't have space in my life for a new fandom right now! :-) but much of what you say here, especially in the conclusion of your piece, resonates for me as a fan of Stargate Atlantis. So thanks for giving me a lot to think about.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you could get something out of it, even if you're not in the fandom. ^^ (Though if you ever do have time, I totally recommend it. I can't even describe how shiny it is, and how inexplicably happy it makes me. XD )

Thanks for stopping by! ^^

[trie-squid.livejournal.com]

*points to post*

Yes, that's it. Thank you for articulating what was making me angry with her original meta. Fandom participants are by no means ignorant or stupid. You can't be stupid and be in fandom. It's a physical impossibility.

Okay, maybe not, but I live in hope.

Something else with Nimueh the Evil Temptress Sorcerous in conjunction with Mists of Avalon is that Nimue(h) wasn't all sweetness and light and fluffy kitties. She imprisoned Kevin and drove herself mad in the process. This seems to be very similar to what's going on in Merlin (though I'm not really fluent; I'm only frequent since I haven't seen much of the show yet).

And with the Arthurian legend stuff, if the show was actually doing what she was accusing it of, it's supported out of the legends. The fact that the show is subverting those legends makes my little heart squee.

Also, Merlin is the first Arthurian legend adaptation that I have seen or read (other than Guinevere (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109956/)) that I have not wanted Guin-however-they're-spelling-it-this-time dead, dead, dead.

So they totally get kudos for that in my book.

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

Thank you! ^^

I think it's maybe possible to start out in fandom as rather ignorant/stupid (not quite the right words, but they'll do for the moment), but I don't think it's very easy to remain that way. I mean, when I started out in fandom, I really didn't see the misogyny/racism/classism/other-ism issues in things. I wasn't looking for those things. Being in fandom has taught me how to see those things in a way that a life as an average TV viewer would never have. And besides seeing problems, it's also taught me how to look at subtext, how to turn the narrative over and look at it in different ways, all that nice, juicy meta stuff. I think that if you don't learn to do that, at least a little bit, it would be rather difficult to remain in fandom, since so much of the best fic out there is the best fic out there because it deals with the things fans have found by doing that. *hopes this makes even one iota of sense*

Oh, god yes. I can't even say how wonderful I find Gwen to be. Especially in comparison to all the other Guinevere portrayals out there. I really hope they keep her as awesome as she currently is, because seriously, I don't want another Guinevere that sets off my "skanky ho!!" alarm. :\

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

THIS THIS THIS

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

=D